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JEFF ON THE RANGERS-CELTIC DEBATE PART TWO 26-6-08
Jeff's comments last month commending Rangers' fans tributes to the Celtic legend Tommy Burns has opened up a massive debate north of the border.
Here is some more of your correspondence:
From: David Smith
Dear Jeff
More of an observation that you know doubt will already have realised is sadly true in this parochial little backwater they call Scotland.
The mere mention of public support for Rangers in this day and age, regardless of when you say it and how eloquently you state your reasons, sees you immediately inundated with torrents of abuse.
Inevitably, they all come from the same source and quite frankly it embarrasses Scotland and Scottish Football that lovers of a certain football club from the East End of Glasgow simply hate Rangers more than they love Celtic.
That fact is lost on so many who cannot look objectively at problems like the SPL fixture pile-up, Manchester or any other perceived "slight" on their club.
Keep up the good work and keep the comments coming.
Praise or criticism we can accept provided it is fair, balanced and seeking answers/solutions at the same time.
Sadly that "criticism" up here borders on sheer hatred and closet bigotry but the irony is that bigotry only happens one way up here if you believe all that is written.
Keep supporting and I hope both your teams have an enjoyable and fruitful season.
David
Jeff's reply
I was fully aware of the feelings but perhaps not the extent of the hatred that has been voiced. It appears to be about a lot more than football.
Best Wishes
Jeff
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From: Lenny Scott
Hi Jeff
Did you know that Celtic's chief executive, Peter Lawwell, told the SPL that Celtic couldn't agree to extending the League season as they had already arranged a tour of Japan to begin right after the Scottish Cup Final?
If you ever get the chance, could you ask Lawwell what happened to the tour as Celtic still haven't gone anywhere, unfortunately.
As for the fixture congestion, I notice that no Celtic fan ever attempts to explain why they couldn't play following the death of an ex-player yet managed to play when their assistant manager had died. It is absolutely disgraceful behaviour from a club that disgraces our country with its support for terrorist organisations.
Jeff's reply
Lenny, I have learnt that the feelings of some Rangers and Celtic fans are stronger for other issues than perhaps for their teams.
I was a referee and have always been a football fan. The other matters don't interest me, mainly because I don't fully understand them and because they are fuck all to do with football.
Best wishes
Jeff
Lenny responds:
Hi Jeff
I love your straight talking, honest approach and although you do make a valid point, these other issues do affect football when administrators attempt to give their own team an advantage by manipulating things to suit themselves.
Cheers and keep up the good work. I am now a fan of yours.
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From: TedVerdeyBlanco
Jeff
I am disappointed that you use your platform to sweep under the carpet the quite awful behaviour of a significant number of Rangers fans in Manchester and also the displays of outright bigotry ("Famine's over, why don't you go home", "Fuck the Pope", "Up to our knees in Fenian blood", "We are the people") that are, quite frankly, commonplace amongst their support.
They have a lot of 'previous' and to label anyone pointing this out as a 'Celtic bigot' is ridiculous. (But then, have you betrayed your inherent bias, given your cosy relationship with Rangers Supporters' representatives, thereby diluting the force of your opinion?)
No amount of spin will hide the fact that Rangers Football Club need to proactively disassociate themselves from the poisonous anti-Catholic/Irish agenda which they have both overtly and covertly promoted since early in their history as a reaction to the immigrant Irish Catholic population.
When the National Front espouse such attitudes, they are roundly despised and treated as pariahs. Not so in Scotland, where such attitudes from the 'second largest institution' (whatever that means) ensure that such actions are condoned, if not sadly nurtured (Murray knows his market well, I assure you).
Celtic FC define themselves by and celebrate their immigrant culture and diversity ("It is the man himself, not his creed that is important" - Willie Maley). This contrasts directly with the Shame of Scotland (ask Barcelona - twice - Villareal, Osasuna, Jerusalem, Manchester) whose bigotry and racism has blighted our small (minded?) country for decades.
Rangers only reactively 'changed their ways' when absolutely forced to by UEFA/the realisation that an 'all Protestant' team could not compete with Celtic in the modern era.
We are NOT two sides of the same coin and I would gladly bin the Old Firm tag which ties Celtic unwillingly to the poisonous institution that is Rangers Football Club.
Ask yourself, are you truly objective and impartial in your analysis of the situation or an apologist for the cancer that has riven our society for far too long?
Heads out of the sand please. Let the enlightened Rangers support (I have a friend who was in Manchester and was absolutely disgusted by the bigotry and behaviour displayed there - he feels his club has been hijacked) we always hear of but never actually audibly hear, lead the charge against the bigots in their midst, who I assure you are NOT a minority.
Jeff's reply
Both sides put their points very well Ted, both sides are very passionate and both sides truly believe what they want to believe.
I am not biased about anything in life that debars me from listening to both sides of any argument.
All I did was point out what I saw and witnessed at and around the ground in Manchester and also at Hampden for the Cup Final.
That, despite what may have gone on elsewhere, was actually factual.
If it is a sin to support a football team then I am guilty as charged.
Best Wishes
Jeff
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From: TRUEBLUE
Hi Jeff
Could you please tell Dee that I'm sorry she has trouble with Alzheimers but I will gladly remind her of what she has so readily forgotten...
Here Dee:
Was it not the Celtic fans who hit refs with lighters, coins etc?
Is it not the Celtic fans who smash refs' windows when things don't go their way?
Was it not the Celtic fans who hired a private detective to find out the religion of a ref before an Old Firm Game?
Is it not the Celtic fans who call every ref a "Mason", which amazes me as there are Catholics in the Masons too.
Is it not the Celtic fans who sing about the murdering IRA scum?
And now THAT YOU'VE STOPPED IT (lol), you are all goodie goodies? It's a bit like a mass murderer suddenly becoming a born again Christian, is it not?
Keep taking the pills, they may just work some day...
Jeff's reply
I think that you and Dee should get together and make babies. Perhaps that might take your mind off the past and concentrate on the future.
From my experience, fans, like players and managers, are all capable of anything. The trouble is that they only see things one way.
Best wishes
Jeff
TRUEBLUE returns:
HI AGAIN
Sorry Jeff, I meant to ask Dee if she could tell me what happened to the plane that was diverted when the manky mob flew to Seville - or is that something else she has forgotten?
As you see, I get quite pissed off with the shite that comes out of their mouths season after season. But then they've always had this big chip on their shoulders...
Jeff's reply
This could, and probably will, go on forever. Every set of fans has at some time been involved in a problem. I know because many years ago I was as guilty as anyone.
On a more positive note, I saw Lafferty play on loan at Darlington a few years ago and he looks promising. The best way to shut up opposing fans is to win something - two cups was good but now for the title.
Best Wishes
Jeff
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From: Paul
A referee who supports Rangers? Surely not!!
On a serious note (and assuming you hadn't been put out to pasture), suppose you had been tasked with refereeing the UEFA Cup Final (I know you wouldn't get the Boro ones, that would be a little too obvious). Judging by the comments within these pages, could you honestly say you would be impartial?
This is not an anti-Rangers rant, just a "I don't get the opportunity to talk to many grade one referees" rant.
Paul
Jeff's reply
That would never happen as they would keep British refs away from British teams. However, ironically, quite often we see refs from Europe reffing teams from neighbouring countries.
When you go on to a pitch you have enough to worry about concentrating on the game without concerning yourself with who is playing.
When I reffed Boro in testamonial or friendly games, quite often the players moaned that they got nothing as I bent over backwards to prove how impartial I was.
I can honestly say though that I would ref each game on its merits.
Best wishes
Jeff
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From: Barry the cross dressing badger
Your unhelpful and attention seeking blogs on the subject of the behaviour of Rangers fans in Manchester were nothing more than a poorly constructed attempt to turn the attention away from the thugs in Manchester and turn it on to the response of Celtic fans to your frankly pathetic attempts to stay in the limelight.
In future, I suggest you keep your own council on such matters and refrain from writing drivel about a subject you obviously know nothing about and do not have to live with day in day out.
Your career is over, accept it and move on with your life. The constant desperation you exude to stay in the media only erodes further the already diminished credibility you have left and gives a revealing insight into the mind of a rather pathetic individual who doesn't seem to have the good judgement and self awareness to leave subjects which he is not qualified to comment on well alone.
I hope you heed this advice and don't follow your previous examples of denouncing critics as religious bigots. Such actions would only be a vain and futile attempt to negate the rightful criticism of your foolhardy actions and to shield yourself from the reality of the situation.
B.Nixon (a Partick Thistle fan)
Jeff's reply
Well many thanks for your advice Barry. Now here is some for you:
Firstly, start using commas!!
Secondly, it would appear alright for you to rant on and have an opinion but it would appear that I can't have one. Funnily enough, it would also appear that a lot of people do value my opinions and my career is actually thriving.
I was in Manchester and I merely said what I saw. It has provoked bitter response and many opinions. Not all Celtic, Rangers or even Partick Thistle fans are bad no matter how extreme the behaviour and views of some are.
I must go now as my pathetic attempts to stay in the limelight mean that I am very busy.
Best wishes
Jeff
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From: Stewart
Some info on TGFITW for you, Jeff.
http://ifyouknowtheirhistory.blogspot.com/
There are bad ones on both sides. Don't let them kid you.
Jeff's reply
I know that - every club in the world has that situation. It just appears that with Rangers and Celtic, the feelings are far stronger than most.
It would appear that Arsene Wenger eyesight is apparent and fans see and believe only what they want to.
Best Wishes
Jeff
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From: Dav
Jeff, you speak so much sense to all 'Gers fans.
There are Sellick fans who are Irish bigots but these are not real Celtic fans. Real Celtic fans know that we both have problems. They talk about Seville but what about the 500 drunk Celtic fans who had to land at Newcastle, not Glasgow where they should have landed? No, the press in Scotland just brushed it under the carpet.
Jeff, you are a top man.
Jeff's reply
Dav, I come to Glasgow regularly and drink in bars and meet people who support both sides. There is intense rivalry but no one harps on about history and wants to kill each other. There will always be extremes and in the "Old Firm", this is probably more apparent than with most sides.
I merely spoke out on what I saw as biased reporting and sensationalism over what were deplorable scenes in Manchester.
It was totally out of context with what I witnessed. What happened was wrong but to tar all Rangers supporters with the same brush is as ludicrous as to suggest that the behaviour of those Celtic fans on the plane truly reflects the tens of thousands who went to Seville and behaved impeccably.
Best Wishes
Jeff
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From: Joe Strummer
Hi Jeff
Just a few words in response to the litany of lies and spin from the Celtic fans who hate Rangers more than they love their own club. It is only natural that they're jealous of the big club in Glasgow, I suppose.
Anyway, last season Rangers only asked the SPL for what Celtic received when they reached the UEFA Cup Final in 2003 - a free week's prep for the Final. No special treatment, no privileges, just the exact same as Celtic.
However, Rangers were refused this and instead, were forced to play four games in a week, scuppering the end of their season. Every fair minded football fan has agreed that Rangers were treated most unfairly by the SPL, except Celtic fans unsurprisingly.
As for Manchester, the idiots who misbehaved should be jailed but in context, they only represent 0.001% of the Rangers fans who had a great time in the city with no trouble.
As for the hooliganism aspect with regards to the Old Firm, Celtic currently hold the record for the most banning orders from British football grounds. Not Chelsea fans, not Millwall fans, but Celtic suppoters.
All the best, Jeff.
Jeff's reply
Hi Joe
Since my original post, I feel as if I have had a history lesson. I have learnt about Irish politics, problems with fans over the last fifty years etc etc. I also have had my integrity questioned because I have admitted to supporting Rangers.
The conspiracy theories are bollocks in my opinion. Fans, like managers and players, see what they want to see and believe in what they want to believe in.
On the positive side, that is brilliant and that passion makes football what is; a great sport.
To be quite honest, the extreme views do not interest me. I saw what I saw and that is what I stated. It's a bit like when I reffed and that caused controversy too.
Best wishes
Jeff
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From: William Blakeway
Jeff, I saw a link to your page in a Rangers forum and I am astonished by some of the messages left by Celtic fans intent on slandering our club.
Are these the same fans who fought pitch battles in Blackburn, stabbed each other in Seville and had planes re-routed because of fan behaviour during the same season?
Are these also the same fans who chanted terrorist songs during a minute's silence for the victims of 9/11 and also ruined the minutes silence for the Ibrox disaster? They are responsible for the end of minute's silences in Scotland.
We, on the other hand, respected the minutes silence for Celtic players like Bobby Murdoch and did a minute's applause for Tommy Burns (not once, not twice, but three times).
This slander is coming from the same set of fans who attacked their own directors and who caused a European tie against Rapid Vienna to be replayed because they threw missiles at opposing players.
Let's not forget the cowardly missile throwing and injury to Hugh Dallas, the three pitch invasions trying to attack him, or the even more cowardly attack on his home and the home of Rangers goalscorer Neil McCann.
And if we go a little further back, we can look at other pitch invasions like the attack on Gordon Strachan or Rangers goalkeeper Ally Maxwell.
I have no love for Celtic Football Club and I would rather concentrate on my own club - the club that has won more major honours than any other club in world football. But, people who stay in glass houses should refrain from throwing stones.
Good luck Jeff and all the best.
Jeff's reply
As I have said to many others William, football fans in general, and "Old Firm" fans in particular, seem to have selective memories. It's a bit like listening to a party political broadcast - everyone sounds genuine and believable.
I will be back in Glasgow next season watching a football team I love and not giving a damn about history, religion or anything else.
Best wishes
Jeff
William responds:
Thanks for your reply Jeff.
I know I went off on one about Celtic fans slandering "my club" but it is getting beyond a joke here at the moment with everyone having a pop at us. It seems that everyone in the media has it in for Rangers. This is not surprising when the presenter of our top sports radio show (Peter Martin) writes for a Roman Catholic church newspaper and is renowned for his hatred of Rangers Football Club.
I spent most of the day in Manchester for the Final but entered the stadium just after 16:30 as I had a hospitality package for my father (who is 68) and I. I never witnessed any trouble but I did see the lack of toilet facilities and refuse disposal around the Fans Zone.
This report from the GMP just looks like "deflector shields on maximum" to hide and take the heat off them and Manchester CC for their ineptitude at organising a major event.
I have been supporting Rangers home, away and abroad in Europe for thirty years and I was sickened by the CCTV footage. It's a pity we can't see it all and are only allowed to view what GMP want to produce.
I have heard some horrific stories from Manchester - men in their 60s being baton charged by police, fathers seperated from their young sons because they left the Fans Zone to go to one of the four Portaloos and then not being allowed access back into the square.
Anyway Jeff, I enjoyed your pages and I will return. I am looking forward to reading your book too.
Jeff's reply
It does concern me that of late there have been other occasions where the police seem to have replicated the actions of their counterparts in Italy.
If you look on my site, you will see tales of the recent Sunderland v Boro game. I fully appreciate that at times the police have to defend themselves and have to deal with extreme provocation but sometimes it seems they relish the chance to crack a few heads.
As a Rangers fan who feels that the press is against you, you will now appreciate exactly how I felt as a referee.
Best wishes
Jeff
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From: Lothian Unionist
Hi Jeff
I just stumbled across your site through the Newsnow link.
It's funny because I actually walked past you at a recent UEFA Cup Match at Ibrox - it was Sporting Lisbon if my memory is correct. I wondered if it was indeed you watching the famous Glasgow Rangers.
Sadly your nice comments about our club and supporters will fall on many deaf ears in Scotland. In recent years, the press have tried to make Rangers=bad and Celtic=good.
I respect your opinion because you have made the effort to speak and mix in with the real Rangers. A welcoming club steeped in history and tradition, it warms my heart when our English friends make the effort to understand our club.
On Manchester itself, no-one can condone the actions of those yobbos who shamed themselves, our club and our country. Thankfully though, people like yourself can see through the narrow minded hatred normally reserved for our club and tell it like it is.
We always hear about Celtic and Seville and the fact that there were no arrests. True, there were no arrests at the Final but they fail to point out the riots in Vigo, plane diversions to Wales and stabbings by their support in the lead up to the Final itself. Mind you, never let the truth get in the way of a good story!
All the best to you Jeff and I hope to see you outside Ibrox in the future.
I have now bookmarked your site and will probably buy your book for my holidays!
Jeff's reply
Yours is probably the most sensible email that I have received on this subject - and I am not just saying that to encourage you to buy my book either!! Ha ha.
I never tried to condone the actions of those morons in Manchester, I just felt it was totally wrong to tar everyone with the same brush.
Equally, as you say, there were instances of bad behaviour from Celtic fans but that should not ruin the reputation of tens of thousands who behaved impeccably.
I hope I do bump into you again at a game and I hope you enjoy the book.
Best Wishes
Jeff
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From Albert P
It's good to know about your allegience to The Rangers. When you come to Braehead on the 5th of July, I hope you have the time for a wee walk through Glasgow. It will be a great day as usual.
Jeff's reply
Not only will I have a walk through Glasgow but I will possibly have time to stop for a beer or two. If, as usual, I get to ref Rangers v Celtic, I will be impartial as always.
You might be able to help me. I have tried without success to get one of those linen/cloth Rangers scarves. They have been around for years yet no one seems to stock them any more.
Best wishes
Jeff
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From Wullie
Barcelona 1972: Rangers fans were attacked and defended themselves against Franco's Fascist and brutal Guardia Civil.
Maurice Johnston had death threats made against him and required protection, but not from Rangers fans. These threats were made by Celtic fans but I'm sure you knew that anyway.
The events in Manchester were disgraceful but were carried out by only a tiny minority (approx 200) of the 200,000+ fans who were in attendance.
Also, Celtic Park being closed and Celtic having to play a home European match in England. Or the riot at Vigo airport, or the plane load of Celtic fans being diverted to Cardiff becuase of their behaviour at 37,000ft.
Celtic fans mocked Claudio Reyna (USA team captain) over 9/11 by pretending to be aeroplanes.
The assassination attempt on a fellow Celtic fan in Amsterdam.
Celtic captain Neil Lennon publically referring to Rangers' bench and support as "Orange Bastards".
The riot by Celtic fans in Blackburn, which had more arrests than there was in Manchester recently.
The current Celtic fans favourite song at the moment, to the tune of a Christian hymn, is as follows:
I hope you die in your sleep Nacho Novo
I hope you die in your sleep, I pray
I hope you die in your sleep Nacho Novo
By a bullet from the IRA
Pretty well puts the Billy Boys song to shame, eh?
Also against Mark Walters, hundreds of bananas had to be cleared from the trackside at Celtic Park.
There is existing film and commentary of this shameful event, the most horrendous example of racism in British sport, bar none. It just goes to show that Celtic FC aren't as innocent as they come across.
Jeff's reply
Now that's funny as none of the Celtic fans have mentioned any of that to me. They have, however, come out with an equally castigating stream of events they claim were committed by Rangers fans.
I appreciate the feelings although they have nothing at all to do with football. I suppose, to quote perhaps a poor analogy, if the supporters were your two squabbling kids, they would be sent to bed without any supper. I know it is far deeper than that.
Because I gave an honest opinion on what I actually saw, I have been made a "hero" by Rangers fans and become the "anti-Christ" in the eyes of some Celtic fans. In reality, neither accolade is deserved.
This site will hopefully get back to dealing with football issues, although I am hoping to write some articles for the Rangers fans sites next season.
Best wishes
Jeff
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From: William
I played football all my days at amateur level, won the Scottish Amateur Cup as a player and always liked referees who had a laugh during the game and spoke to you like an adult. But on the other hand, there are so many referees today who court and seek confrontation and allow no dialogue.
I saw a post on your letters page from a Celtic fan about referees' allegancies to Rangers. Are these referees, Steve Conroy, Ian Brines and Craig Thomson - the ones who gifted Celtic nine points in three games in a row?
A perfectly good Aberdeen goal at Parkhead was disallowed for no apparent reason. The ref later apologised but failed to give an explanation as to why he disallowed the goal.
Or Steve Conroy, who gifted Celtic a corner when it was an obvious goal kick and of course Celtic scored from the corner.
Lastly Mr Thomson, who allowed Celtic's first goal against Rangers to stand when everyone could see it was offside. Then he allowed Van Hesselink to stay on the field after a waist high assault on Andy Faye. He THEN compounded it all by giving Celtic a penalty after McDonald stood on Broadfoot's foot and he threw himself to the floor.
Brines and Conroy are renowned for their support of Celtic. I'm not sure about Thomson, I think he is just a shit referee.
William
Jeff's reply
I too preferred the approach of talking to players rather than just brandishing cards.
I am sure that Celtic fans could give a similar account of decisions that went in Rangers favour and of alleged Rangers bias. I recall a couple of very dubious decisions that went Rangers way against Dundee United towards the end of the season.
Due to the geography, it is quite easy to keep refs away from local clubs in England. In Scotland, it is not so easy. The religious aspect also has a bearing, as well as the fact that as kids, many referees might have supported one team or another. The conspiracy theories will go on I am afraid.
Best wishes
Jeff
William responds:
Good answer Jeff but the Dundee United game was one game. Unfortunately, Celtic got these desicions three games in a row. They were also very fortunate in a few other games concerning Mr Brines. But point taken and thanks for the reply.
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