The poor treatment of Boro fans by Northumbria Police following last month's Wear-Tees derby is something that has been highlighted on Jeff Winter's Phone-in show.
This has once again opened the debate regarding the policing of football matches and whether the average football fan is being unfairly treated by the authorities.
Here are a selection of letters to Jeff on the issue:
From: Shellhewling
Dear Jeff
I was on the train that took supporters to the Sunderland game and I totally agree with the magistrate's comments.
We were hustled and bustled about on the platform at Sunderland station. I find it hard to believe that some people did not get locked up as the police were pushing people with batons. I am fifty years old and my partner is also fifty and I'm sure that if the police had pushed me, my partner would have punched the policeman.
Thanks to the magistrate for bring this to the public attention. I have nothing but admiration for him as he told it the way it was. It is not often that a Sunderlad supporter stands up for a Smoggie but I would like to buy him a pint as my story would never have had the impact as that of a magistrate.
Jeff's reply:
I have received several messages from fans who have described the incidents in exactly the same manner.
The police response has been pathetic. It was well known that Boro troublemakers were intending to travel to the game and in fact many had arrived in Sunderland at around 10.30am, ready for the pubs opening.
The police had decided to take high profile measures to prevent trouble but surely they can tell the difference between a large gang of lads and respectable people. But then again that means that if you are in a party of males you are immediately presumed to be looking for trouble.
Had these incidents happened in Rome, we would have half expected it but as I have said in my articles, if you treat people like animals then some will behave like them.
I, like your partner, would have been in a similar position and if my wife or for that matter, any one's wife or child was being put in danger in my presence, then I too would have got involved.
The magistrate in question has incurred some problems. He has been spoken to by the Clerk of the Courts and also has incurred some criticism both in the Gazette and also on my Phone-in programme from former magistrates who toe the party line and state that a magistrate should not speak out in public against the police.
I used to be a magistrate myself and even though they do a very worthwhile job, many come from a background where they could not begin to understand what actually happens in real life.
Yes, they are open minded but if a policeman told the court that a football fan had done this that or the other it would take a hell of a lot of witnesses to sway their judgment.
The magistrate in question has done an excellent service in making people aware. I have also had contact from a local solicitor who saw the day's events as well. I will cover this subject in my article in this Friday's Evening Gazette and print other responses in a special section of my website.
I hope that by keeping the subject in the public domain, the police will learn form this incident. I will not be holding my breath though.
Best Wishes
Jeff Winter
************************
From: Graham
Hi Jeff, just to point out that I am in the legal profession and I couldn't agree more with the views of the Teesside magistrate.
I saw the pushing and shoving in the railway station and it was not caused by any Middlesbrough supporters. As the magistrate says, it was caused by the aggressive behaviour and intimidation of the police. Every word that the magistrate said on tele was correct. There was trouble after the game when a lot of Middlesbrough supporters were hit with batons simply because they wanted to go to the toilets. This is England, not Rome!
I only hope that the magistrate does not get into any trouble with the hierarchy as I saw him as giving a very fair and unbiased opinion (considering he was supporting Sunderland at the time).
As for the mention of football banning orders, I have always found that magistrates judge each case on its merits and I am sure that this magistrate is no exception.
Jeff's reply:
Hi Graham
Whilst this incident is regrettable, if any good comes out of it, it will be the fact that people are more aware of the problems still incurred by genuine football fans. The fact that people like yourself and the magistrate are prepared to pass comment is necessary if the situation is going to improve.
I hear what you say about magistrates being even handed when dealing with any matter, however the reality is that when faced with a "Football supporter" the preconceived idea about football fans (especially to many magistrates who have never nor will never attend a game) is such that people are judged to be guilty, especially when the police in numbers have "evidence" against them.
I feel that the three year banning order for offences that away from a football match would incur a mere caution or a bind over are far too severe.
I am not saying that football grounds are not a far safer place to be than in previous years but the way that fans are herded around surely must infringe on human rights.
I don't know if any good will come out of this. In fact to the contrary the police statements suggest that their actions prevented any serious problems. I wonder what their response would have been if an old lady had collapsed and died or a crush had caused injury due to their baton charges?
Best wishes
Jeff
************************
From: Larry
Dear Mr. Winter
As with all newspapers and media, the attention is focused on the trouble at the derby game last week.
On television, I saw a magistrate giving an interview. The points that the magistrate made were very valid as I went to the game as a neutral supporter. The magistrate's personal views were very important as I also witnessed similar incidents involving intimidation by the police.
The media do exaggerate interviews however. I am also a magistrate and I don't think for one minute that the mag would have made any comment about football banning orders.
He is entitled to his opinion, the same as anyone else, and I have been asked if this magistrate could be in trouble for his comments. However he has the full support of his colleagues and of the Middlesbrough supporters.
As a supporter he is well judged to bring his experience of football into a court room. I understand that he has worked in professional football for a very long time and I am sure that defendants in court would be a lot happier if they knew that the magistrate actually knew something about the game rather than being a magistrate who has never been to a game in his life.
Give this mag a medal for speaking openly without fear or favour as the oath goes.
Larry G.
Jeff's reply:
I agree with you 100%. However, a former magistrate came on my show at the weekend and I also read a letter in the Gazette from a mag, who were both critical of the actions that the magistrate who was at the game had taken.
I know he was misquoted and that the main thrust of his interview was not aired and a piece that he thought he was making off the record was used.
As a former magistrate myself, I was often asked not to sit on football related incidents. That infuriated me as my knowledge of the game would actually have helped. Also, a referee who was sometimes hundreds of miles away refereeing a game could not sit on the case, but other magistrates who were actually at the game and could have witnessed any incidents could. Sometimes the law is an ass.
I understand that initially it has been suggested that the magistrate in question should not sit on banning order cases. This, I am sure you will agree, is ludicrous.
Perhaps the one good thing to come out of this is the fact that perhaps some magistrates and indeed the public at large will realize that not all football fans are trouble makers and that sometimes the innocent can get caught up in troubles.
I will be covering the subject along with letters received on a special section on my website this week.
Best Wishes
Jeff Winter
************************
From: Davey
I posted this on the Sunderland forum this week:
Here's some footage from the Smoggies end (I'm one of course).
I've never known anything like it for a game of football. Four of us went for a few drinks around South Shields first (it sounds like a wise choice) and we watched the first half of the Chelsea v Manchester United game (finding a pub with Sky Sports in South Shields town centre was a mission and a half!). We then headed off to Southwick where I parked the car (how long's the Albion been closed?)
There were no problems before the game but it all started when the police wouldn't let us go to the toilets 10-15 minutes before the end of the game. This wazzed off quite a few fans and more and more fans were stuck on the stairway as nobody was going anywhere. People at the front then started to get crushed as the police pushed fans back and started to get physical.
You lot score at the end, the final whistle goes and the police finally see sense and let us down into the concourse. However, they block the exits.
There were two exits: the one nearest the Sunderland fans' end in the South Stand and here, the police wall got broken somehow (watching from near the other exit, we just thought fans were being let out) and Boro fans spill out of the stadium.
The police then formed another human wall penning us all in but like people have said on here, that blocked the road for Sunderland fans to pass and no one went anywhere for ages.
We were then moved towards the coaches (remember, my car was parked in Southwick). The supporters who had travelled by bus/coach were allowed on the buses whilst the rest of us were still penned in by the Police near where Fleet Factors used to be on the Sheepfolds (I used to work there).
Neither myself nor my mates were wearing any colours and I tried explaining to the police that we had travelled by car and were parked in Southwick and hadn't come on the train or parked in the City Centre (the direction in which they were forcing us to go).
Would they listen? Would they heck as like. They herded us like cattle towards St Peter's Metro Station further away from where my car was and they got more aggressive and threatening the more we tried to reason with them without being abusive/aggressive ourselves. All they would say was they were awaiting orders (from where I haven't a clue) and that they seemed to know as much as we did. After over an hour, they eventually let us walk towards Southwick.
It really puts you off wanting to visit the SOL again but why should I let Northumbria Police deny me the chance of watching a Wear-Tees derby again? I guess if we are treated the same next season, I'd have to think long and hard about it. I enjoyed my visit to the SOL, the "We hate Boro" chants etc all add to the atmosphere. It's just a shame the Police spoilt my day (more than your 92nd minute winner!)
Jeff, I did text your show last Saturday evening to let you know how we were getting treated at the time by the police.
Bridlington Davey
Jeff's reply:
I read out your text live on air and this provoked Ray, a Sunderland fan from Peterlee, to ring in as he was in agreement with your comments.
It would seem that "intelligence" - a term not really appropriate to the way the police behaved at the railway station - had predicted that known Boro fans were travelling to Sunderland. The police response was to have a very high profile presence and to be provocative.
The treatment of the fans at the ground does seem over the top but probably nowhere near as bad as the actions taken as a train pulled into the station before the game. Here, innocent shoppers and older genuine fans were treat like animals and it is this fact that has got the media attention.
When Newcastle play at the SOL, I understand that the match ticket is bought in conjunction with transport and all fans are bussed to the ground under escort or otherwise they cannot attend. Talk about a restriction of liberty. If that happened to Boro fans, they may well have to travel further to a coach collection point than if they went directly to the ground.
The police do have a very difficult job to do and perhaps have to take severe actions at times but on this occasion they just seem to have gone right over the top. The vibes suggest though that they are treating it as a job well done. No doubt some fans who were provoked into a reaction will face three year football banning orders and a criminal record. It stinks!!
Best wishes
Jeff
************************
From: Graeme Silvestor
Great show and good debate. Let's hope the mags are not in trouble for speaking the truth.
Jeff's reply
Unfortunately I believe that the magistrate in question has initially been told he should not sit on cases involving football banning orders. To me that is ridiculous. One of the reasons that I resigned as a magistrate was that quite often we had people who were so out of touch with reality.
Best wishes
Jeff
************************
Hi Jeff
The Police and MFC knew that there was going to be trouble weeks before the game. They had posters up in the concourses at the Riverside saying that due to
maintenance around Sunderland Train station, there would be no trains (or a
restricted service) from Middlesbrough to Sunderland on the day of the game
(what a load of bollox, eh?!).
However the club would be laying on coaches at a
cost of £8.50 per person. So that would have meant me and my mates spending nearly £35 on transport
when just over a tenner of petrol got us there and back and allowed us to do
as we wished (we went to South Shields for a few jars to watch Chelsea v Man
Utd).
MFC did lay on 'free' buses a few seasons ago but only after we'd only been
allocated something like 800 tickets and loads of Boro fans bought tickets in
the Sunderland end.
They gave us more on the basis that MFC put on free transport
for Boro fans.
I have a feeling that next season, like you say, it will be a case of
yes you can have 3,000 tickets Boro but no one will be allowed to travel
independently or you'll get no tickets. This surely shouldn't be allowed.
I spoke to the riot police (I had plenty of time and opportunity) and they said
that they would have preferred it if no Boro fans had travelled independently as it
would have made their life a hell of a lot easier.
Davey
Jeff's reply
Whatever happened to human rights? I thought in this country we were allowed to move freely and have freedom
of speech.
If that had been a protest march led by our hook handed friend then the police would have stood off and
let the demonstrators curse and shout messages of hatred, no problem. Football fans are obviously different and can be
treat like animals. It stinks.
